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that's what paul ryan and mitt romney are talking about. our folks are energized, mobilized, they are knocking on doors and passing out leaflets. >> jared? >> look, ohio is a state where the unemployment rate peaked well above the national level. 11%. where the national peaked at 10. and now it got to the 7s well before the national unemployment level got there. it peaked higher and got lower. and a very clear factor at play here is the rescue of the auto industry. now, a lot of people think of the auto industry as the big plants at the end of the line that build the cars and, of course, that is the end of the line. but what is really going on in ohio are a bunch of small businesses in the auto supply chain and there's been thousands and thousands of good, middle class jobs created in that supply chain that absolutely wouldn't be here absence the president's interventions and people in ohio know that and it's a very important fact that the vice president hit on yesterday and again drew an important distinction with his opponent. >> lee, it'
that's what paul ryan and mitt romney are talking about. our folks are energized, mobilized, they are knocking on doors and passing out leaflets. >> jared? >> look, ohio is a state where the unemployment rate peaked well above the national level. 11%. where the national peaked at 10. and now it got to the 7s well before the national unemployment level got there. it peaked higher and got lower. and a very clear factor at play here is the rescue of the auto industry. now, a lot of...
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all of us heard candidate romney talk about a 20% cut in all tax rates, a 20% cut. you know? we're swimming in debt. you know, so he says now, well that's not really a 20% cut but a revenue neutral tax. doesn't make sense and hard to pin down a guy that doesn't have core beliefs. >> david, what a lot of voters do, undecided voters, they say, well, who am i supposed to believe here? >> yeah, no. that's clearly what the debate did and i would suggest this is one of the reasons why you see governor romney improve in terms of polls is got the discussion back on the economy and the central issues of taxes and seeing clearly both sides have a different view in terms of what the governor proposing. watching that play out and ultimately i would suggest this is a good conversation for governor romney to be involved in. >> let me just make the point that, you know, governor romney pays a 14% income tax rate which is less than most working families pay in this country and ought to be the first question to him. if we all believe and i think we should that we need to reform the tax code t
all of us heard candidate romney talk about a 20% cut in all tax rates, a 20% cut. you know? we're swimming in debt. you know, so he says now, well that's not really a 20% cut but a revenue neutral tax. doesn't make sense and hard to pin down a guy that doesn't have core beliefs. >> david, what a lot of voters do, undecided voters, they say, well, who am i supposed to believe here? >> yeah, no. that's clearly what the debate did and i would suggest this is one of the reasons why you...
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let's listen to what governor romney said today. he talked about the fact that -- excuse me. i wanted to quote the fact that he talked about the attack on the consulate and he said that it was likely to same people who attacked us on september 11, tieg tying it to al qaeda and that he would vigorously pursue those who attacked the consulate in benghazi. we heard from the white house they are planning to target who was responsible. what would governor romney do differently than president obama is planning to do? given to the fact ta benghazi had a high number of foreign fighters based, al qaeda fighters that flooded into iraq years earlier. there are a lot of questions. the real question, you take a step back. president obama's foreign policy in the middle east. at one point some two dozen capitols, storming embassies. iran closer to a nuclear bomb. you were talking about the bloodshed in syria. what governor romney is saying is rather than make analysis of tactical developments we have to step back and say had the administration been an observer of events rather than a shaper
let's listen to what governor romney said today. he talked about the fact that -- excuse me. i wanted to quote the fact that he talked about the attack on the consulate and he said that it was likely to same people who attacked us on september 11, tieg tying it to al qaeda and that he would vigorously pursue those who attacked the consulate in benghazi. we heard from the white house they are planning to target who was responsible. what would governor romney do differently than president obama...
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let's watch. >> i asked you to talk to romney and ryan what would you say to them -- >> i would say -- >> that you have concerns about. >> we have a leaderless government and they lead. they can govern. this gentleman can't govern. he can't governor earn. he's doing politics day and night. >> alan simpson being alan simpson. i've covered him for decades, mark you have as well. but it's certainly gives the republicans a little bit of a talking point since alan simpson is someone the president points to as being, you know, the simpson-bowles plan that i appointed. >> if you like me to feign shocked alan simpson said something newsworthy and outrageous, i will. some say he shouldn't be in that mode on the day of the debate. that's the republicans' increase lig full-floated argument why the president should be replaced as the economy's gotten better it's harder for them to make a straight economic argument and simpson is giving voice to what you hear a lot not just the romney campaign, it's about leadership overseas, leadership at home and alan simpson says -- said in his colorful manner.
let's watch. >> i asked you to talk to romney and ryan what would you say to them -- >> i would say -- >> that you have concerns about. >> we have a leaderless government and they lead. they can govern. this gentleman can't govern. he can't governor earn. he's doing politics day and night. >> alan simpson being alan simpson. i've covered him for decades, mark you have as well. but it's certainly gives the republicans a little bit of a talking point since alan...
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, how much you pay for your health care as a woman, and when rom romney talks about repealing health care reform that's women's costs are going up, i'm not spending on my family, these issues are interconnected for women and that's been the president from president obama and joe biden in the way that romney and ryan are trying to get around talking about it. >> i think also ryan was going out of his way to appear sort of moderate and not is logically extreme and then was asked about the abortion question and really like, you know, kind of had a nonanswer almost because he doesn't believe in a woman's right to choose and -- >> he doesn't even agree with romney. when he said in a romney administration here's what position would be. that's not his position. he's actually more extreme than governor romney. >> he was the one sponsoring amendments with -- >> legitimate rape, which i like biden got that in there too. >> that's a separate ding. >> ben, the math thing has always been a trick of late, the arithmetic has been tricky for ryan, i'm referring to interviews with brit hume and chris
, how much you pay for your health care as a woman, and when rom romney talks about repealing health care reform that's women's costs are going up, i'm not spending on my family, these issues are interconnected for women and that's been the president from president obama and joe biden in the way that romney and ryan are trying to get around talking about it. >> i think also ryan was going out of his way to appear sort of moderate and not is logically extreme and then was asked about the...
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even had mitt romney -- one scenario i've talked about with republicans today, had mitt romney not done well at the debate last week and folks had seen the writing on the wall that perhaps this candidacy was doomed they would have done a bob dole 1996 strategy and doubled down on races in the house and senate and put resources there. romney on the uptick they won't do that. they think there's going to be a lot of enthusiasm for their candidates and they're not worried. will there be a measurable impact? you'll see it in the senate races in the democratic leaning states that were redistricted in democrats' favor like illinois and new york but enough of a wave election to switch the house, probably not. >> steve kornacki, there's a lot to talk about in terms of some of these tight senate races. the brown/warren one i love talking massachusetts politics. >> so do i. >> the latest wbur poll has warren behind scott brown by three points. other polls have elizabeth warren leading. a third debate tonight. this has been an interesting race to watch. your assessment of it? >> i think what's happ
even had mitt romney -- one scenario i've talked about with republicans today, had mitt romney not done well at the debate last week and folks had seen the writing on the wall that perhaps this candidacy was doomed they would have done a bob dole 1996 strategy and doubled down on races in the house and senate and put resources there. romney on the uptick they won't do that. they think there's going to be a lot of enthusiasm for their candidates and they're not worried. will there be a...
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he was talking about this guy. >> he talks about detroit. mitt romney is a car guy. >> good one. sell that salesman at the top of the ticket and drives a couple cad laks. but bill clinton today, well, he was a bit incredulous about that line at an event in indiana. >> mr. ryan said last night that governor romney was a car guy. i thought, well, if having an elevator to stack them counts, i guess he was. >> now president clinton, don't you go down that line that mr. romney is just a plutocrat who will never get the 47% to take the responsibility for their own lives and car storage. paul ryan has got his back and will defend him to the gates of hell. >> mitt romney is a good man. he cares about 100% of americans in this country, and with respect to that quote, i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. >> but i always say what i mean. and so does romney. >> yes, except mr. romney only says what he means in quiet rooms. let's get right to our panel. here in new york msnbc contributor ari melber and msnbc political
he was talking about this guy. >> he talks about detroit. mitt romney is a car guy. >> good one. sell that salesman at the top of the ticket and drives a couple cad laks. but bill clinton today, well, he was a bit incredulous about that line at an event in indiana. >> mr. ryan said last night that governor romney was a car guy. i thought, well, if having an elevator to stack them counts, i guess he was. >> now president clinton, don't you go down that line that mr....
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do you think, though, that mitt romney can make inroads talking about manufacturing with the unemployment rate now nationally below 7.8% and the fact that president obama was able to save the car manufacturing industry? >> i don't think so. if you talk to people in warren and youngstown, they know. one of every eight jobs are linked to the auto industry, of which the governor said let detroit go bankrupt. so, no one is going to fall for the trips and the traps of what the republicans are talking about. you know, this is the same man who said that he didn't care about the 47%, but now all of a sudden, he cares about the 47% because he is trying to get elected. so again, i believe that ohioans are going to stay strong. this is not the president's first trip to the rodeo when it comes to ohio. he's been paying attention to ohio for the past 3 1/2 years and that will not change when he is re-elected. >> one thing i want to talk to you about because we have you here is late last week this court victory in ohio, where an appeals court judge saying that your state can't single out the military f
do you think, though, that mitt romney can make inroads talking about manufacturing with the unemployment rate now nationally below 7.8% and the fact that president obama was able to save the car manufacturing industry? >> i don't think so. if you talk to people in warren and youngstown, they know. one of every eight jobs are linked to the auto industry, of which the governor said let detroit go bankrupt. so, no one is going to fall for the trips and the traps of what the republicans are...
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this other quick note is romney adviser telling nbc news the governor will no longer be talking about glenn dougherty knowing that mrs. dougherty is not happy. see you on the debate. thank you very much. that does it for us. out of time. this edition of "andrey mitchell reports." we'll see you tomorrow live in kentucky for the vice presidential debate. my colleague tamron hall at the debate, also. see you tomorrow in person. >> absolutely. all right. our next hour in president obama's first major interview since the debate, radio icon tom joiner asks the president about the debate performance. the headline, quote, i was just too polite. we'll play what the president said including his description of his strategy for debate number two. >>> plus, ann romney coming out swinging 24 hours before the vice presidential debate. she is now accusing democrats of, quote, poor sportsmanship coming to accusing her husband of lying. >>> news nation gut check. who do you think is under more pressure? vice president joe biden or congressman paul ryan? "news nation" is up in three. but when joint pain
this other quick note is romney adviser telling nbc news the governor will no longer be talking about glenn dougherty knowing that mrs. dougherty is not happy. see you on the debate. thank you very much. that does it for us. out of time. this edition of "andrey mitchell reports." we'll see you tomorrow live in kentucky for the vice presidential debate. my colleague tamron hall at the debate, also. see you tomorrow in person. >> absolutely. all right. our next hour in president...
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just minutes ago the president talked about the first debate. >> governor romney had a good night. i had a bad night. >> how bad? >> well, it's not the first time i've had a bad night but i think what's important is that the fundamentals of what this race is about hasn't changed. governor romney went to a lot of trouble to try to hide what his positions are. if you have a bad game, you move on to the next one and it makes you that much more determined. the difference between this and sports is that the stakes are so high. >> we knew this race would be close. the question is, how will we respond? joining me now is dick, chairman of the south carolina democratic party, and tan den, president of the americans for progress. thank you both for being here. >> thank you. >> nira, today you cautioned obama supporters to stop freaking out. so where do you see things now moving forward? >> you know, i actually think that if you look at the numbers, even on gallup, the president took a hit to his numbers from the debate performance, no question about it, but it does seem like he's coming back
just minutes ago the president talked about the first debate. >> governor romney had a good night. i had a bad night. >> how bad? >> well, it's not the first time i've had a bad night but i think what's important is that the fundamentals of what this race is about hasn't changed. governor romney went to a lot of trouble to try to hide what his positions are. if you have a bad game, you move on to the next one and it makes you that much more determined. the difference between...
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of the speech yesterday from governor romney where he talked about defense cuts and his proposals, paul ryan voted for the sequester and cuts, how does paul ryan defend his original budget and medicare proposals in contrast to what governor romney is now proposing? >> well, what matters now is, what is governor romney's plan going forward and paul ryan has signed up for the romney plan. specifically with respect to the sequester, governor romney is opposed to it. in fact, when that was decided last summer governor romney issued a statement specifically mentions the prospect of some devastating cuts to our national defense budget should sequestration become necessary. so the governor has made it a priority to reverse the obama defense cuts. it's not just the $500 billion that will happen as a result of sequestratio sequestration, another $500 billion in the works. the president's defense secretary has said the combination of the obama defense cuts with sequestration will be devastating to our military. it will further weaken our standings in the world and embolden our adversaries. >> wha
of the speech yesterday from governor romney where he talked about defense cuts and his proposals, paul ryan voted for the sequester and cuts, how does paul ryan defend his original budget and medicare proposals in contrast to what governor romney is now proposing? >> well, what matters now is, what is governor romney's plan going forward and paul ryan has signed up for the romney plan. specifically with respect to the sequester, governor romney is opposed to it. in fact, when that was...
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look, for three weeks, mitt romney got hammered from the democratic debate through the talk about the 47%, his taxes, and the like. and with a bad debate performance. if the president won the first presidential debate, clearly, i think the presidential race would have been all but over. but the debate has changed the narrative, the discussion, and moved some poll numbers, and i grant you, this is not a dramatic change, but it is an important change though it's small, i think the race is very, very competitive once again. >> jonathan capehart, i want to bring you in on this. karl rove writing in the "wall street journal" today, how biggen big biggen an impact did mitt romney's debate have. huge, romney not only won the night but changed the arc of the election and perhaps its outcome. what do you make of that? look at skeptical face. >> sure, mitt romney had a fantastic night in the debate last week. he got a bounce out of. but as richard and i were talking about during the break that bounce is disappearing. i mean as stephanie cutter said in the clip that you showed the race is back t
look, for three weeks, mitt romney got hammered from the democratic debate through the talk about the 47%, his taxes, and the like. and with a bad debate performance. if the president won the first presidential debate, clearly, i think the presidential race would have been all but over. but the debate has changed the narrative, the discussion, and moved some poll numbers, and i grant you, this is not a dramatic change, but it is an important change though it's small, i think the race is very,...
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governor romney scapegoating educational public broadcasting for a talking point? look, for me, the report, what was stunning was that the reading gaps are closed in part when kids self select and read things that they themselves like. and i'm just thinking for me, ce sesame street was all about in you stories and different kind of folks and part of what developed me as a kid to find stories that i loved and liked. is this an actual attack on this very thing we are looking at here? >> there's been tons of attacks. romney also wants to give the defense department $2 billion more than they've asked for and yet wants to cut not just big bird but is he taking on national education cuts, no. we are cutting education. we are cutting it. we're cutting it at a time when we know the class size, for example, so to get those individualized plans for kids e requires teachers to have fewer students in their classrooms. >> i'm not surprised he does this, though, because oftentimes republicans support innovative styles ofes of learning and bringing learning to the tv, to internet
governor romney scapegoating educational public broadcasting for a talking point? look, for me, the report, what was stunning was that the reading gaps are closed in part when kids self select and read things that they themselves like. and i'm just thinking for me, ce sesame street was all about in you stories and different kind of folks and part of what developed me as a kid to find stories that i loved and liked. is this an actual attack on this very thing we are looking at here? >>...
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the key thing to say, though, for governor romney and goes to something the general was talking about, we're war weary in this country. he may try to sound muscular and tough but america said we don't want saber rattling but engage differently in the world with president obama and i think what i'll listen for and the democrats listen for and the american people to listen for what's the cost of these ideas that he may -- this rhetoric to throw out? how many american troops is that? how much money to cost the country, not spent here at home. how many lives are we talking about? are we prepared to make those sacrifices for a foreign policy that mitt romney may or may not propose? >> joel, from your state perspective, karen talking about words do matter srks that a big part of today's foreign policy address, avoiding land mines, pitfalls in his wording? >> words do matter and the international community is confused by governor romney and the foreign policy. the shifting back and forth on issues such as libya, to egypt. very confusing for foreign leaders to gauge where he is and the americ
the key thing to say, though, for governor romney and goes to something the general was talking about, we're war weary in this country. he may try to sound muscular and tough but america said we don't want saber rattling but engage differently in the world with president obama and i think what i'll listen for and the democrats listen for and the american people to listen for what's the cost of these ideas that he may -- this rhetoric to throw out? how many american troops is that? how much...
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because as you remember last week the obama campaign was talking about mitt romney's performance. and when you're doing that it tends to be an indicator that that side knows that they lost. >> as we look ahead to the town hall, what did joe biden do whether substantive or stylistic that president obama should adopt? >> well, i think that joe biden re-energized the debate and the base of the party. a lot of people wanted to jump ship were panicking. he went out and really got everyone excited again. the president needs to step up in the next debate and do his job. remember, this is the guy who told hillary clinton that you're -- he can really step it up when he chooses to step it up. he need to get a good night's sleep, don't worry about the altitude and really get in there. >> that is so random. really? that's just really a stretch on that one. anyway, so susan, you can expect the president to be a lot tougher this time around, i know. how should mitt romney approach this debate? do you think he's going to be spending a lot of timan inning openings left by paul ryan? >> i don't th
because as you remember last week the obama campaign was talking about mitt romney's performance. and when you're doing that it tends to be an indicator that that side knows that they lost. >> as we look ahead to the town hall, what did joe biden do whether substantive or stylistic that president obama should adopt? >> well, i think that joe biden re-energized the debate and the base of the party. a lot of people wanted to jump ship were panicking. he went out and really got...
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but governor romney has been talking about a growing crescendo of enthusiasm, john. is that something we think at this point, something that's going to last, or is it going to die down, especially if we see a more aggressive president obama at the debate on tuesday? >> well, he experienced something that may have sounded like a crescendo after the first debate in denver. i'm in the sure that's still going on. but, you know, he's got a limited period of time to try to make up the deficit he has in some of the swing states. he's very close to the president. he could be, you know, behind a point or two nationally, maybe ahead a point or two. we get conflicting polls. we know he's behind in some of the battle ground states. he's got a narrower path to 270 electoral votes. we showed in our poll last week he's down six among likely voters in ohio. ohio is the state that his campaign believes it has to win. that's why they're spending so much time and energy there. >> i'm glad you brought that up. senator portman said something, and i want to play this sound for our audienc
but governor romney has been talking about a growing crescendo of enthusiasm, john. is that something we think at this point, something that's going to last, or is it going to die down, especially if we see a more aggressive president obama at the debate on tuesday? >> well, he experienced something that may have sounded like a crescendo after the first debate in denver. i'm in the sure that's still going on. but, you know, he's got a limited period of time to try to make up the deficit...
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. >> let's talk about the new and improved and wetter mitt romney that we saw yesterday on stage. i will say, you know, president obama that moment when he's in the downpour his shirt sleeves are wet, wiping his face away, the dram my tus persona on the stage, romney in the downpour, swagger is no the a word we often use with mitt romney but it was the sort of boldest, most confident romney we've seen in a long time. >> which presidential candidate looks better wet. i'm glad to finally get to those independent voters who are like -- >> what is your answer to this. >> obama. >> by a mile. >> like a wet t-shirt contest. surprised it wasn't in slow mo, didn't do this thing with his hair. >> the collar alone, no, not good. >> i will say look, we've seen a change in mitt romney's general personage on the national stage and it was as far as mitt romney moments go, i thought he looked pretty strong out there. >> he did preside. but we're judging him on a weak curve of humanity, doesn't seem as robotic as had he used to be, but which is not actually human. >> the rain coat personifies a p
. >> let's talk about the new and improved and wetter mitt romney that we saw yesterday on stage. i will say, you know, president obama that moment when he's in the downpour his shirt sleeves are wet, wiping his face away, the dram my tus persona on the stage, romney in the downpour, swagger is no the a word we often use with mitt romney but it was the sort of boldest, most confident romney we've seen in a long time. >> which presidential candidate looks better wet. i'm glad to...
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>> well, i think the campaign was very busy talking about -- writing out some fact checking on mitt romney and just the one after another series of misstatements and outright lies that he made. but i don't think there's anybody on the campaign who feels that the president did as well as he could and as well as he will in the next debate. but the other thing is that we haven't seen a lot of movement, actually in the polls and movement away from barack obama. after some of the focus groups, both men had an increase in their favorability. you know, so we'll see what kind of effect it has long-term, but that i think he's going to do better. >> well, one thing did happen. we have found out that mitt romney's campaign says it has collected $12 million in online contributions since the wednesday debate. these are regular people. these are people who are impressed by his performance and contributed online. does your campaign feel threatened by that? >> well, you know, the online contributions of the obama campaign, 10 million people having contributed online, i don't think that the romney campaign
>> well, i think the campaign was very busy talking about -- writing out some fact checking on mitt romney and just the one after another series of misstatements and outright lies that he made. but i don't think there's anybody on the campaign who feels that the president did as well as he could and as well as he will in the next debate. but the other thing is that we haven't seen a lot of movement, actually in the polls and movement away from barack obama. after some of the focus groups,...
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you just were talking about the romney campaign. were they going to pull out of ohio? now we're not talking about that anymore. were they go to have some type of purging in the campaign? that's out of window. right now looks like a very close race. >> mark murray, can't wait until you get the results of your big poll you're working on. thank you, mark. >> to the bitter end even after a judge sentenced jerry sandusky to what would likely be the rest of his life in prison, sandusky maintains his innocence saying he tried to bring joy and make people laugh. >>> there's a lot going on today. brand-new poll out of massachusetts shows senator scott brown now leading his democratic challenger 48 to 45. it's not all bad news for elizabeth warren. when casting votes, 62% say they think about which political party control controls the senate, a number that could help warren in the largely democratic state. nickelodeon says governor romney is, quote, dissing children for not taking part in the event. linda eller besaid they said he couldn't fit in the schedule. they say the dog a
you just were talking about the romney campaign. were they going to pull out of ohio? now we're not talking about that anymore. were they go to have some type of purging in the campaign? that's out of window. right now looks like a very close race. >> mark murray, can't wait until you get the results of your big poll you're working on. thank you, mark. >> to the bitter end even after a judge sentenced jerry sandusky to what would likely be the rest of his life in prison, sandusky...
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romney showed that softer sides on that temperaturing speech talking about a dying 14-year-old boy he befriended from the san francisco show "saturday night lights jrktsz. >> david didn't make it, but he did not lose, david's one of my heroes rp heroes, he's one of the confidence builders i have in america's future. >> romney's retooled speech is evidence of a growing role of ann romney and the couple's oldest son tag in the campaign that they're the ones pushing candidate romney to humanize himself, play all the charitable size. yesterday romney also passed out mcdonald's to reporters and had an impromptu rope line where he shook the hands of fourth and fifth graders. the next potential turning point in the campaign will come thursday when vice president biden and paul ryan fates off in danville, kentucky. last night the debate got a mention before a crowd of 4,000 in michigan by a guy who introduced ryan as a fellow hunter and a fellow fan of rock 'n roll, none other than mr. kid rock. >> i enjoyed it so much, i think i might throw a keg party for the ryan-biden debate. >> of course
romney showed that softer sides on that temperaturing speech talking about a dying 14-year-old boy he befriended from the san francisco show "saturday night lights jrktsz. >> david didn't make it, but he did not lose, david's one of my heroes rp heroes, he's one of the confidence builders i have in america's future. >> romney's retooled speech is evidence of a growing role of ann romney and the couple's oldest son tag in the campaign that they're the ones pushing candidate...
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romney can't really talk about his mormonism because that was the family secret. that's fascinating to me. we wonder why is romney so careful about what people call the hidden man and a lot of people said that's why. >> you also look into president obama's childhood, which is described as unsettling. >> feel about him in 2008, this same film, the choice x about him them. the deep er we dug into indonesia, into an 18-year-old mom who basically raised obama -- he doesn't speak the language. he's black. black is not good in independon. by 10, he's really on his own, living with his two white grandparents. >> it's hard to really get your arms around that. did he love his grandmother? z >> oh, yes. attachment was there. was there resentment? because a lot of kids get sent to their grandparents. i'm reading pete townsend's biography. >> the thing that comes out of the film tomorrow night, grandfather, alcoholic. grandmother, one of those alcoholics who comes home after work as a vice president at the local bank and herself drinks a lot. they love him. he loves them. but
romney can't really talk about his mormonism because that was the family secret. that's fascinating to me. we wonder why is romney so careful about what people call the hidden man and a lot of people said that's why. >> you also look into president obama's childhood, which is described as unsettling. >> feel about him in 2008, this same film, the choice x about him them. the deep er we dug into indonesia, into an 18-year-old mom who basically raised obama -- he doesn't speak the...
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you're talking about single digits having picked sides as a result of the debate, and romney got the advantage there. we see a slight closing of the numbers in these three critical states, but nothing to change -- to alter the fundamental chemistry of this race. you still have a close race. it looks a little bit like it did, as you say, before the conventions, slight edge to obama, particularly in ohio. but very close. >> i want to look at his job approval rating, if you will. among likely voters and among registered voters. among likely voters, we have a screen up here. post-debate, it's approval ratings. florida at 48, virginia at 48, ohio 49. in ohio, the numbers was 47. it does seem as if the likely voter sample was more favorable to the democrats than the registered voter sample. the likely voter sample more favorable to the president than voters. what did you learn from that going through the probability scale. >> just two points to be said. the president isn't over 50, and that's an important political process. trying to kick this up just a few more points. generally well rece
you're talking about single digits having picked sides as a result of the debate, and romney got the advantage there. we see a slight closing of the numbers in these three critical states, but nothing to change -- to alter the fundamental chemistry of this race. you still have a close race. it looks a little bit like it did, as you say, before the conventions, slight edge to obama, particularly in ohio. but very close. >> i want to look at his job approval rating, if you will. among...
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this has been a talking point of romney's for a while. i think he wants to show he's tough on spending and he'll get rid of stuff that's unnecessary, even if people like it, but this is just too easy -- >> beating up on big bird? >> no one likes to see you beating up on big bird. this is too easy. my loser for the week, we've been here, jack welsh. apparently it's safe to say that on msnbc. >> he's still a minority, though, he does have the minority. i'm just saying. so i've been going after him too hard. >> okay. but, look, the bigger problem here is that, you know, the problem for the republican isn't some number ticking upward, even if it was some bureaucrat cooking the books. the problem is that people are feeling better about the economy and this number corroborates the optimism we're seeing in polls tick upwards. >> morris, your picks? >> for me, it's the economy, more expansion, more people getting jobs, people feeling good about this economy, feeling good about themselves, that's the winner of the week, the american people, and mo
this has been a talking point of romney's for a while. i think he wants to show he's tough on spending and he'll get rid of stuff that's unnecessary, even if people like it, but this is just too easy -- >> beating up on big bird? >> no one likes to see you beating up on big bird. this is too easy. my loser for the week, we've been here, jack welsh. apparently it's safe to say that on msnbc. >> he's still a minority, though, he does have the minority. i'm just saying. so i've...
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i think ryan and romney, while they talk about having a five-point plan, they are not willing to be specific. they are not willing to be specific about their $5 trillion in tax cuts and what they are going to do for the middle class. >> can i ask you both quickly, and look further ahead than tuesday night. 2016, did either of these candidates, do you think, increase their chances, maybe of running for president, if not then maybe for paul ryan in the future? >> 2016 -- i hope we don't have to talk about 2016. we have 26 more days to talk about this one and then can we take a break before we get to that? >> i think it's more like 2020 for paul ryan because i expect that mitt romney will be elected and we'll be standing again in 2016. paul ryan did help himself. he came across informed, sober, credible, wasn't flustered by biden's antics. i think that was important. i think you'll see a lot of swing voters and independent voters gravitate to that style, that tone that he did show a level of leadership people are looking for. >> always good to have you on the program. thank you. >>> the europea
i think ryan and romney, while they talk about having a five-point plan, they are not willing to be specific. they are not willing to be specific about their $5 trillion in tax cuts and what they are going to do for the middle class. >> can i ask you both quickly, and look further ahead than tuesday night. 2016, did either of these candidates, do you think, increase their chances, maybe of running for president, if not then maybe for paul ryan in the future? >> 2016 -- i hope we...
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most people are watching, and it takes away a key talking point for governor romney. he was saying for 43 months straight, unemployment was above 8%. it's no longer something me can say. >> okay. ed, with respect to the conspiracy theories, despite jared doesn't want to give it more oxygen, just a little bit more here. mitt romney is not latched on to their rhetoric. could all of this talk damage him, though, in the long run? in some ways it's highlighting the fact it's below 8%. this number, 7.8. >> it certainly robs him of the ability to say in a campaign speech as he has since he launched his campaign, that the unemployment rate is above 8%. but as he said yesterday, most americans would agree with him on, you know, we can do better. the number still isn't good. i think everyone would agree looking at the numbers that came out yesterday that, you know, 100,000-plus is fine, but really want to create 200,000-plus. you want to see employment growth everywhere. you don't want to see hundreds of thousands of people leaving the workforce. on that, there is general agree
most people are watching, and it takes away a key talking point for governor romney. he was saying for 43 months straight, unemployment was above 8%. it's no longer something me can say. >> okay. ed, with respect to the conspiracy theories, despite jared doesn't want to give it more oxygen, just a little bit more here. mitt romney is not latched on to their rhetoric. could all of this talk damage him, though, in the long run? in some ways it's highlighting the fact it's below 8%. this...
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that compares to 35 ohio offices for romney. but the romney campaign bolstered by the debate is now invading obama territory. they are campaigning in counties where president obama won by double digits in 2008. here to talk about the ground game strategy is msnbc political analyst and former dnc communications director karen finney. republican strategist and former huckabee campaign manager chip saltzman. >> good morning. >> mitt romney's political director says they are now playing on the obama side of the 50 yard line. is had a a smart strategy? >> yeah, i think it is. simply because if you can take counties where he won by 12%, 13%, knock that down to 8%, that's a big win for mitt romney. and he's going to try to use the momentum he has from the debates to kind of push the envelope on this. as we know the last 30 days, it is all about momentum, where the enthusiasm is at, excitement is at. we have with mitt romney. >> karen, he does make a point. barack obama has this big advantage in field offices. not just in ohio but in a
that compares to 35 ohio offices for romney. but the romney campaign bolstered by the debate is now invading obama territory. they are campaigning in counties where president obama won by double digits in 2008. here to talk about the ground game strategy is msnbc political analyst and former dnc communications director karen finney. republican strategist and former huckabee campaign manager chip saltzman. >> good morning. >> mitt romney's political director says they are now playing...
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romney's been talking about conditions. the president and the vice president have said they're coming home 2014. >> why did vice president biden hammer paul ryan tonight on the issue of him requesting stimulus funds for his district? i get that he caught him in a little bit of hypocrisy, but he's not realistically criticizing paul ryan for having asked for funds that the democratic side maintains has worked well? >> here's paul ryan criticizing the stimulus package, how terrible it was, deepening the deficit. then he makes personal requests for his own congressional district. that's a matter of record. i don't think paul ryan looked very good at the end of the day. he believed that stimulus plan was going to create jobs. that's exactly what it did. >> senator, this is ed. i don't know if pressure is the right word or not, but joe biden went in to this debate tonight. he had to accomplish something that maybe wasn't done in last week's debate. you being a veteran of the senate, i know you've known joe for a long time. was th
romney's been talking about conditions. the president and the vice president have said they're coming home 2014. >> why did vice president biden hammer paul ryan tonight on the issue of him requesting stimulus funds for his district? i get that he caught him in a little bit of hypocrisy, but he's not realistically criticizing paul ryan for having asked for funds that the democratic side maintains has worked well? >> here's paul ryan criticizing the stimulus package, how terrible it...
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i think he feels it very deeply, but can't raleigh talk about it. there's a hidden secret that he keeps in very close about it. i think it's altered the way he approaches conversation about many other things that people would like to know about him. >> all religions have that, if you don't mind it, i'm sure i'll offend everybody, with the weirdnesses, whether it's exorcism in my religion. you don't want to run on the issue of exorcism. to be all fair, they all have weird things, right? so what is it that he doesn't want to bring out that might be seen as relevant by voters? >> well, i think it's not so much what's seen as relevant by voters, but the way i look at the religion with mitt was i wanted to know what his faith mean to a young boy growing up in the mormon church as opposed to maybe you, chris, growing up in the catholic church. the answers were very interesting to me. some of it has to do with the mission and his mission experience, but a lot of it has to do with the favorite family relation, with nair relationship to their great-grandfath
i think he feels it very deeply, but can't raleigh talk about it. there's a hidden secret that he keeps in very close about it. i think it's altered the way he approaches conversation about many other things that people would like to know about him. >> all religions have that, if you don't mind it, i'm sure i'll offend everybody, with the weirdnesses, whether it's exorcism in my religion. you don't want to run on the issue of exorcism. to be all fair, they all have weird things, right? so...
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>> i think it's clear he changed. >> newt talks about the fact true supply siders wouldn't be happy with him saying the top brackets won't get tax cuts at all. conservatives are happy because he's up in the polls, but if he looks like a loser again, will we see conservatives critical of him before coming out and criticizing his rhetorical shift to the center? >> who would expect he would do the etch-a-sketch in one week, change every position like he changes his clothes in the morning. it would be done over such a short period of time, so dramatically and he'd get so little blow-back. i think what happened is because the conservatives got so desperate and they were looking at four more years of president obama, they're willing to let romney get away with this. i don't think romney was doing this by design. you say i'll wait until they're desperate and roll out the etch-a-sketch. it had that effect. they were so certain they were losing, a lot of the conservatives will hold their fire saying, look, in flip-flopping romney is a whole lot better than having obama in there. they're letting h
>> i think it's clear he changed. >> newt talks about the fact true supply siders wouldn't be happy with him saying the top brackets won't get tax cuts at all. conservatives are happy because he's up in the polls, but if he looks like a loser again, will we see conservatives critical of him before coming out and criticizing his rhetorical shift to the center? >> who would expect he would do the etch-a-sketch in one week, change every position like he changes his clothes in the...
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he talked about not taxing the wealthy. now he says he will tax the wealthy. he talks about energy independence now but didn't support the president on his programs to create alternative forms of energy for our country, which this president did. he talks about tax changes to help business development. who did that? president obama, with 100% tax credit in manufacturing, for example, which has just sizzled across the industrial midwest with the business start-ups that we see. even art furnaces being installed on the ohio republic steel. we haven't seen this in two decades. so, he can talk as a candidate, but the president has done it in a very difficult situation that he inherited from the bush administration, where the whole country's economy collapsed because of those titans up on wall street that tied up the finances of this country, and literally, we've had the largest transfer of wealth in american history from main street to wall street. you think that mitt romney, who was a part of that culture, is going to change anything for the people of this country?
he talked about not taxing the wealthy. now he says he will tax the wealthy. he talks about energy independence now but didn't support the president on his programs to create alternative forms of energy for our country, which this president did. he talks about tax changes to help business development. who did that? president obama, with 100% tax credit in manufacturing, for example, which has just sizzled across the industrial midwest with the business start-ups that we see. even art furnaces...
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we are seeing a big push in ohio for mitt romney as well as president obama. we know that no republican has ever taken the white house without taking ohio. "the new york times" article that they have out also talks about african-american voting battleground states like north carolina. which president obama won by just 14,000 votes in '08. certainly could be a key in this re-election. article also notes the presidential election got 100% of african-american women's vote in north carolina. do you think -- it is voter enthusiasm that's the problem? this time around. >> i mean, i think that these women are not as excited this turnaround but, treatmently loyal. and don't forget about michelle obama. the power that she has with african-american women. while we -- really do appreciate what the president has done, i think a lot of black women are looking to say basically well, we appreciate what has been done, we want to see more. we want to know what he is going to do for us specifically. and so we look at the first lady and we know that's his number one adviser. tak
we are seeing a big push in ohio for mitt romney as well as president obama. we know that no republican has ever taken the white house without taking ohio. "the new york times" article that they have out also talks about african-american voting battleground states like north carolina. which president obama won by just 14,000 votes in '08. certainly could be a key in this re-election. article also notes the presidential election got 100% of african-american women's vote in north...
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to make it less politicized, and certainly the romney team rightly is talking about this. it's amazing tht front and center. >> to that same end, if what republicans are saying is true that the obama officials were trickling out the bad news then respect they politicizing the story as well? >> this is a ridiculous story. i like michael steele a great deal. i think he's actually sort of a democrat. >> please. >> but the truth is out -- on social issues. the truth is this is equivalent to spreading the rumor that george bush knew about 9/11 before it happened. it's a ridiculous story. the republicans are going after the president of being unpatriotic. this president needs support on the ber national and national tragedy. and this is a disgrace for the republican party to do this. >> don't you think there is merit into saying had the white house been forthcoming, or do you believe honestly what the white house put out there is honestly what they knew. >> that is what they need. >> the white house and the state department. >> i've been briefed by very senior officials on this
to make it less politicized, and certainly the romney team rightly is talking about this. it's amazing tht front and center. >> to that same end, if what republicans are saying is true that the obama officials were trickling out the bad news then respect they politicizing the story as well? >> this is a ridiculous story. i like michael steele a great deal. i think he's actually sort of a democrat. >> please. >> but the truth is out -- on social issues. the truth is this...
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. >> what mitt romney is doing is something i haven't heard a single figure ever do, which is endorse the current health care status quo. and you can talk to hospital administrators, the folks that run catholic charities, people in medicaid. the current status quo is where people show up in emergency rooms and it's the least efficient, most human and expensive way of delivering health care. that's the status quo that everyone agrees is broken that we should do away with and, in fact, was one of the main drivers. >> exactly. it's agreed to by both parties. >> no one says that it's a great system, people wait to get care until the emergency room. >> aside from services with emergency rooms where you could sit there forever and it's an amazing show of how detached he is of the average life of an american. but let me go back to you, krystal, because we talked about his opponent, mr. ryan. biden has always been able to sell himself as a president who can relate to the middle class. listen to him doing the 2008 debate. >> look, i understand what it's like to be a single parent. when my wife
. >> what mitt romney is doing is something i haven't heard a single figure ever do, which is endorse the current health care status quo. and you can talk to hospital administrators, the folks that run catholic charities, people in medicaid. the current status quo is where people show up in emergency rooms and it's the least efficient, most human and expensive way of delivering health care. that's the status quo that everyone agrees is broken that we should do away with and, in fact, was...
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i thought paul did a good job last night talking about it and i'm sure governor romney will in the next debate. >> senator jim talent thanks for joining us. >> thank you, andrea. >> up next, the democratic take on last night's debate. party chair deppby wasserman-schultz. >> time for the your business entrepreneur of the week. former model and goldman sachs analyst created shoptiques that helps local boutiques that don't have their own sites sell on-line. she knows content sells and launched a companion on-line magazine as an ultimate source for what's in. for more watch your business sunday morning at 7:30 on msnbc. [ female announcer ] beef, meet flavor boost. flavor boost, meet beef. it's swanson flavor boost. concentrated broth to add delicious flavor to your skillet dish in just one stir. mmm! [ female announcer ] cook, meet compliments. get recipes at flavorboost.com. i've got a nice long life ahead. big plans. so when i found out medicare doesn't pay all my medical expenses, i looked at my options. then i got a medicare supplement insurance plan. [ male announcer ] if you're elig
i thought paul did a good job last night talking about it and i'm sure governor romney will in the next debate. >> senator jim talent thanks for joining us. >> thank you, andrea. >> up next, the democratic take on last night's debate. party chair deppby wasserman-schultz. >> time for the your business entrepreneur of the week. former model and goldman sachs analyst created shoptiques that helps local boutiques that don't have their own sites sell on-line. she knows...
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romney did against president bush. he's got to call him on it in live time right there on the spot so that he can't associate himself with the new romney. he's got to associate mr. ryan with his budget recommendations and with the draconian measures that have been put forth in the past. >> and that budget of course voted on only a few months ago. mark, what are the other main weaknesses you see starting with paul ryan and moving on to joe biden? >> i think his biggest challenge is expectations. you have been talking about that pew poll that shows more people thought that paul ryan is going to do better than joe biden. i watched joe biden four years ago in all the democratic primary debates. he did very, very well. i think going into this debate, joe biden has been underestimated. the guy will come off very, very well, and you end up having a republican base that has put so much energy into paul ryan, who wants him to succeed, and the expectations for his very first debate like this might be a very difficult for him. >>
romney did against president bush. he's got to call him on it in live time right there on the spot so that he can't associate himself with the new romney. he's got to associate mr. ryan with his budget recommendations and with the draconian measures that have been put forth in the past. >> and that budget of course voted on only a few months ago. mark, what are the other main weaknesses you see starting with paul ryan and moving on to joe biden? >> i think his biggest challenge is...
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are we talking biden fire? >> i think he'll have biden type fire. >> okay. >> but i think he will at least try to contest some of the points that romney puts across, and try to define just who romney is. we have the many different faces he puts out there every election. >> so kevin has come up with a new concept of obama fire. it will be a first if we see it. i think the headline with all to discuss the voters will have the day after election, hey, folks, it's time to celebrate. less than three weeks to go when this is over. >> bob franken, i enjoy you so. brain trust on this saturday, bob franken, kevin baker, jennifer rubin. many thanks to all thee of you. and thanks to you at home as well for spending some of your saturday with us. we enjoyed it so much. we've decided that we will be back here again tomorrow afternoon. we'll start it at 3:00 eastern, right after "meet the press," of course, where moderator david gregory will be talking politics with a panel of experts. and then he'll spend some time talking
are we talking biden fire? >> i think he'll have biden type fire. >> okay. >> but i think he will at least try to contest some of the points that romney puts across, and try to define just who romney is. we have the many different faces he puts out there every election. >> so kevin has come up with a new concept of obama fire. it will be a first if we see it. i think the headline with all to discuss the voters will have the day after election, hey, folks, it's time to...
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i think he feels it very deeply, but can't really talk about it. there's sort of a hidden he fee but can't talk about it. he keeps it close and i think it's altered the way he approaches conversations not just about his faith but about many other things people would like to know about it. >> all religions have, if you don't mind it, their weirdnesses, whether it's exorcism in my religion. every religion has different things. it didn't really add up to history. so what is it that he doesn't want to bring out that might be seen as relevant by voters. >> it's not so much as what's seen by voter, but the way i look at the religion with mitt was that i wanted to know what does faith mean to a young boy growing up in the mormon church as opposed to maybe you, chris, in the catholic church. the answers were very interesting to me. some of it has to do with his mission and the mission experience, but a lot of it has to do with the family story about their own relationship with their great grandfather and that relationship to the united states of america. t
i think he feels it very deeply, but can't really talk about it. there's sort of a hidden he fee but can't talk about it. he keeps it close and i think it's altered the way he approaches conversations not just about his faith but about many other things people would like to know about it. >> all religions have, if you don't mind it, their weirdnesses, whether it's exorcism in my religion. every religion has different things. it didn't really add up to history. so what is it that he...
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mitt romney responded by suggesting the president is taking his eye off the ball. >> these are tough times. with real serious issues. so you have to scratch your head when the president spends the last week talking about saving big bird. >> former president bill clinton was stumping for the president in las vegas last night. offering his thoughts on last week's presidential debate. >> i had a different reaction to that first debate than a lot of people did. i mean, i thought -- wow. here's old moderate mitt. where you been, boy? miss you all these last two years. the problem with this deal is the deal was made by severe conservative mitt. that was how he described himself for two whole years. until three or four days before the debate, they all got together and said, hey, man, this ship is sinking faster than the titanic. so just show up with a sunny face and say i didn't say all that stuff i said the last two years. are you going to believe me or your lying eyes here some come on. . what are you doing? and if i've been the president, i might have said, well, i hate to get in the way
mitt romney responded by suggesting the president is taking his eye off the ball. >> these are tough times. with real serious issues. so you have to scratch your head when the president spends the last week talking about saving big bird. >> former president bill clinton was stumping for the president in las vegas last night. offering his thoughts on last week's presidential debate. >> i had a different reaction to that first debate than a lot of people did. i mean, i thought...
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i talked to ted olson and david boyce about it today. watch. >> mitt romney and paul ryan are pledging a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as only for straight people at the federal level which is unchanged from a george w. bush promise that went unfulfilled. they're also promising to defend doma with the democrats stopping doing that right now under this administration, the house republicans are defending doma. why isn't the republican party following public opinion on this? and why would you want to elect mitt romney and paul ryan in this circumstance, given how you feel about it? >> you may have overlooked the fact that for the last few weeks i've been joe biden. so -- >> mr. olson has been playing the part of joe biden in paul ryan's debate prep, which will help paul ryan get better at debating which will help him become vice president which would be bad for gay rights. right? >> or in my attempt to persuade ryan on this issue. don't understate the possibility that dialogue and talking about these issues makes a dif
i talked to ted olson and david boyce about it today. watch. >> mitt romney and paul ryan are pledging a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as only for straight people at the federal level which is unchanged from a george w. bush promise that went unfulfilled. they're also promising to defend doma with the democrats stopping doing that right now under this administration, the house republicans are defending doma. why isn't the republican party following public opinion on...
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romney is down here. when he talks, do not look at him, look at the audience. when he is talking, look at the audience. do not engage him, because it puts you guys on on the same level. did anybody ever say anything like that? was there any strategic point? it did make sense in hindsight, but it backfired. >> then the president came to have a discussion with the american people and answer questions about where we've been and more importantly where we need to go to continue to strengthen this economy. but, again, i think the president was entirely taken aback, as many of us were, watching somebody like mitt romney say something like i don't have a $5 trillion tax cut. i don't pledge to raise or cut taxes on the wealthy in this country. i love teachers. you know, i think we should have more of them. a whopolicy positions that disappeared instantaneously on that stage. i have no doubt, though, that president obama and vice president biden understand now that we're dealing with a guy that looks a lot like mndz romney and sounds like mitt romney, but we have mitt ro
romney is down here. when he talks, do not look at him, look at the audience. when he is talking, look at the audience. do not engage him, because it puts you guys on on the same level. did anybody ever say anything like that? was there any strategic point? it did make sense in hindsight, but it backfired. >> then the president came to have a discussion with the american people and answer questions about where we've been and more importantly where we need to go to continue to strengthen...
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and romney and the romney campaign has talked about increasing the eligibility age, and they've talked about means testing as well. they're not making it conditional. >> and on the other side, you know, democrats are saying we're not going to talk about raising the retirement age of social security or medicare until you guys say you're going to raise taxes. and tom, you make a great point. they are two separate issues. and they're two separate issues because even if you raise taxes to 90% on the rich, social security and medicare are still going under. republicans, on the other side -- it is about cutting -- the republicans on the other side won't talk about raising taxes. and so we have this standoff. and everybody's staring at each other, and nobody will come on tv and tell the truth. we've got to do everything. >> it's that standoff and those issues that so frustrate the country. a lot of people don't want to give up anything they've got right now, and for good reason in some instances because of their income levels and the kind of conditions in which they live. but others are willi
and romney and the romney campaign has talked about increasing the eligibility age, and they've talked about means testing as well. they're not making it conditional. >> and on the other side, you know, democrats are saying we're not going to talk about raising the retirement age of social security or medicare until you guys say you're going to raise taxes. and tom, you make a great point. they are two separate issues. and they're two separate issues because even if you raise taxes to 90%...
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Oct 13, 2012
10/12
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>> i think in 2002 massachusetts voters fell in like if not in love with mitt romney and that was in watching him lead the olympics out in salt lake city, and he was brought back people saw in him the ceo alkt that he could still talk about today and employ it at the state government level. and for the first year and a half or so, i think the people were satisfied with what they saw. but then there was this social conversion and the policy shifts that came with it and as he started to run for president and now he's going to lose that state dramatically to president obama next month. so i think that we saw a glimpse of it again when this was a tunnel ceiling collapse toward the end of his tenure as governor where he was a good strong leader, he create ad a stem-to-stern review and laid it out for the city of boston and the state of massachusetts, but that was gone then so quickly. and so people there thought he was a good executive when he was engaged as an executive, but they fell out of love with him when they saw he was too much of a politician. >> it's interesting that he might be
>> i think in 2002 massachusetts voters fell in like if not in love with mitt romney and that was in watching him lead the olympics out in salt lake city, and he was brought back people saw in him the ceo alkt that he could still talk about today and employ it at the state government level. and for the first year and a half or so, i think the people were satisfied with what they saw. but then there was this social conversion and the policy shifts that came with it and as he started to run...
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Oct 7, 2012
10/12
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. >> when we come back, we're going to talk more about this. we know there's a problem of biden bromance. i want to know whether or not paul ryan is willing to go hard in for mitt romney. i'm going to gargle during the break. or get the yard ready for cool an energy weather?n to size? the answer? a lot less. the great american fix-up is going on now... ...with new projects every week and big savings every day. so you can do what needs to be done. today. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now, owens corning ecotouch attik insulation is only $11.87 a roll. and i took on all the bigger, tougher ones. but with mr. clean's new select-a-size magic eraser, he can take on any size job. at least we don't go near rex's mobile home as often. what are you, scared? [ dog barks ] aah! oh! [ male announcer ] new mr. clean select-a-size magic eraser. check out the latest collection of snacks from lean cuisine. creamy spinach artichoke dip, crispy garlic chicken spring rolls. they're this season's must-have accessory. lean cuisin
. >> when we come back, we're going to talk more about this. we know there's a problem of biden bromance. i want to know whether or not paul ryan is willing to go hard in for mitt romney. i'm going to gargle during the break. or get the yard ready for cool an energy weather?n to size? the answer? a lot less. the great american fix-up is going on now... ...with new projects every week and big savings every day. so you can do what needs to be done. today. more saving. more doing. that's the...